Forgiveness vs. Healing: Overcoming Trauma with Courageous Fire

00:00
to another episode of Coffee Can't Fix Everything, where we talk about mental health over a cup of coffee. And I have with me today, I feel like you're, am I trying to gas you? Yes. So, I feel like your name is a mission statement. It is. Courageous fire. Man, thank you for joining me on the couch today. I appreciate it.

00:28
Glad to be here, man. Yes. So I have so much that I want to talk to you about. I'm going to be mindful of your time. And I know we're going to get into your book, which I listened to. That's the best way, for real. You know what? It really is. And I have some ideas about that. I think it's.

00:52
We'll get into that. I can't wait. We'll get into that. Look, you know I spent four months listening to how your mind works, so I'm game for it. Come on. Yes, yes, but today I wanna talk to you about something that is somewhat of a theme in the book, not the whole theme of the book, but it is in there, forgiveness. And when you hear that word, when you hear forgiveness, what is your initial reaction?

01:23
to that word. It's my initial reaction. Right out the gate. Nope. Tell me about that. When you say that is a nope with a period at the end. It was. Yup. For real. And I'm curious because you hear a lot. The reason why I thought of that.

01:44
for our conversation. What do we hear a lot? You have to be able to forgive to move on. Yep. You can't get over it until you forgive so and so. But sometimes that's not the case. It's not. Thank you for that question. Because that's one of the things that me and my therapist talked about. And she was just like, so I just want to bring up this word.

02:08
What does this mean to you? I said it means a hard, fast gnosis. And, you know, I'm trying not to unpack too much that we can't put it back in the suitcase. But I grew up in a very dominating religious culture of, you know.

02:34
It doesn't matter how many people steamroll over you, your job is.

02:39
And that became the albatross around my neck in relationships. And it's not just romantic relationships, any relationship, whether it was me and my boss, or me and a coworker, or whether it was me and another friend, that it was always my job to forgive. And I was taught that forgiveness means that you continue to place yourself.

03:07
back in a renewed status with this person of, they've never done anything at all, it's as if it never happened, and now we're fresh. Well, that came.

03:20
in my life, it walked itself out into several predatory relationships and circumstances. And so to me, as soon as you say forgiveness, that's what links up in my head. And so if I am still in predatory situations, that's not a healing situation for me. So why would I be thinking

03:50
When these things happen, now I'm healed, duh. Like now I've arrived at it. And then everything after this little point is now wholeness over here. It's like, no, there are things, wounds that can be closed. There are things that can be scabbed over, scarred over. And maybe even some stuff will close where the little seam is really, really faint and you can barely see it. And that's all versions of healing, but none of that has any.

04:20
to do with anybody else that all had to do with me. And that's and I agree with you and why is because when I when I think of forgiveness, forgiveness forgiveness

04:36
Depending on the situation can be easier. Like if my kids do something wrong, okay, I forgive you. You forgot to turn your light off or you forgot to do your chore. Okay, I can move past that. But you know, for childhood trauma or traumatic experiences, I need to forgive myself first. And I need to forgive myself only. Because there is- Sir.

05:06
Yeah, because there are times where, you know, depending on what the situation is, for myself, I need to forgive myself, but I don't gotta, I don't, me forgiving you is not going to change what happened. It's not.

05:29
But what does that look like? So what is the process of forgiving yourself? Because sometimes, as you can probably attest to, sometimes you gotta forgive yourself for things that didn't even happen to you, but it was traumatic for you as well. So what is, that is a deep question, I realize, as I'm saying it. But what does that look like? Yeah, no, I mean, so you brought up my name when you introduced me.

06:01
It looks like that, right? So courageous fire isn't just something I pulled out of the air. It was intentional. And part of my name is forgiveness to Andrea. And honoring her, and I think that's what forgiveness always ends up looking like, right? So...

06:21
From my own journey as a domestic violence survivor, it looked like, okay, Andrea didn't even know that if she wasn't getting a black eye, it could be abuse. She didn't know that. So she couldn't leave what she couldn't even identify. So forgive her for that. Right? And the way that I can forgive her so easily is because look at how she got us out of that though.

06:51
So I can look at her wins and I can say they overshadow her so-called failures of what she didn't know. And so big ups. Good job, Andrea. You got us out of that. Now, Courageous is going to have to take it from here. But we both.

07:14
forgive you and appreciate you. And I think that for people that I talk to one-on-one or that I do anything else with to help them move past something, that's always where we go is, okay, okay, I get that. You're disappointed that you didn't see that. You're disappointed that you made that choice. You wish you hadn't, you're ashamed with this. Okay, all right, let's put all that to the side for a second. You're here now. This is the person who was back there. What did they do right though?

07:45
that you're now reaping the benefits of. And when you start counting that stuff up, then it's easy to let the other stuff go. Yeah, I think you're touching on something that's hard for a lot of people as we're trying to get to that next level, forgiving.

08:06
a certain part, forgiving yourself, and to be able to go to that next level. Forgiving yourself is hard, especially for a very traumatic situation. I feel like we only focus on, there's not a lot of people who can do what you did, because the thing they did wrong will constantly outweigh the fact that they were able to get out. I tell people a lot.

08:33
that one of my gifts is that no matter if the glass is half full or glass empty or half empty, I can always recognize that there's something in the glass. I like that. Not everybody can do that. So imagine you're talking to somebody who had a traumatic experience and they just can't forgive themselves for even getting into it.

09:00
What is that initial step to break out of that? I always talk about how certain things are some of the few things in life that people blame the person who was harmed instead of blaming the person who harmed them. Because traumatic experiences usually are something somebody did to you. It's like, okay, if somebody just randomly comes down the street and slashes your tires.

09:29
Why would you walk out, see your tires slashed, and go, wow, that's what I get for parking here? You know what I'm saying? Like, what do you mean? You parked at a meter? You put the money in the meter. Like, why is that your fault that somebody else slashed your tires? And most traumatic experiences, somebody else came along and slashed you. You were minding your business. Right. Okay? No, you didn't know that other people had parked in that spot, and they got their tires slashed.

09:59
you didn't have that foreknowledge. Right. Okay, so the you back there didn't have certain types of foreknowledge to not park in that spot. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know when I was a kid with that whole hindsight, it's always 2020. I'm like, that's such a weird statement. What are these people talking about? Of course it's 2020, because now you can lay out everything and look at it. Right. But without all of that foreknowledge.

10:29
What are the things you knew? And look how well you used what you knew to get here. Because I always say to people, but are you here? Do you have some sort of semblance of what your right mind is right now? Good job. And I can only imagine based off of your profession, you're doing that with a lot of people who have gone through traumatic experiences. Do you ever, do you?

10:58
This is just a side question as I'm thinking about this. Do you ever take on that energy when you're working with somebody? And does that take you back to your traumatic experiences? And are you having to forgive yourself all over again? Like, is it a cycle? Like, what is the... I mean, and I think part of it is just the way I'm wired. But for me, like, I'm just like, when you...

11:25
not just survive but conquer a traumatic experience. And I feel like that that is a part of the way that I'm wired is if something was really great, I'm great at identifying the road and the process and the steps so I can repeat that greatness. And if something was shitty, I'm great at going, okay, how did I get here? Let's not ever take those steps again. And how am I gonna get out to a place of stability?

11:55
tell somebody else, hey, when I was in that spot, this is how I got to this place in stability. And so for me, you couldn't tell me nothing after I conquered my first big thing, domestic violence. I was like...

12:09
You don't know about me and these streets, you better ask somebody. I used to tell my kids, don't you hear that theme music? You don't hear it? You don't hear that? That's hilarious. Because I hear it. And I do have a theme song. My theme music is Bad by Michael Jackson. Okay. And when I hear it, everybody who knows me knows I'm hearing it in that moment. They're like, oh, okay. All right. Yeah. So no, it's not hard for me.

12:39
I still feel, and part of that was my name, like I'm walking around wearing that coat, just like a superhero. Like you see them in their costume, you know they came to do business. Right. What's your name? Courageous. That's your real name? Uh-huh. Wow. Believe that. Yeah. Believe that. That is so cool. I wanna talk about,

13:08
we were talking about before we went live, your Mufasa moment. Or was it your Mufasa moment? It's my speech. Yes. So.

13:20
don't give too much away because they gotta pay for that. But I wanna talk about what that, at least what that looks like. What was going through your mind when you were like, you know what, what was my Mufasa moment? What does that look, or walk me through that, because I feel like that is so powerful. It is.

13:42
I believe just to kind of bring it back to the theme of our conversation, I feel like some people may need that just to even start the process to forgive. That's really good, Corey. That's really good. I think that that had to have happened when there was this moment when we were all still living.

14:07
as that dysfunctional family. And my daughters at that point were either 9 and 11 or by then they were 10 and 12. And, you know, abusers say a lot of things.

14:24
to make you believe that this is how they really are. One of the things that he told his kids was, you know, if you ever don't feel comfortable with something I've said or done, you know, you can come to me and talk about it. Now that was said, I don't actually want you to do it, right? And so then when of course anybody ever brought something, it was always deflection or verbal abuse or whatever. And so this time he tried it. When they tried to, you know, come to him and he tried to deflect and this and that.

14:54
And I watched them dig in. I watched these little girls say, Dad, you said that we could do something. And in that moment, I said, whoa.

15:10
Who am I in this moment? Cause I had a very clear picture of two very different options. Yes, I'm afraid of this man, but look at these two little girls. They're holding him to task. They need backup. So in this moment, are you still the fearful wife?

15:38
who's gonna go slink into the background. Or are you their protector, their strength, their extra power, the person who's willing to right the wrong you see? Or are you in this moment? And I was just like, yeah, I need backup. I need backup.

16:05
Because if they're willing to go out here, they're not going to go out here by themselves, because I'm mom. Right. I'm not wife. I'm mom in this moment. That's who I am. And I am such a creative, right? I do a lot of things, and they all come from such a place. And so I watch animation different than probably some other people. And I might be watching something that's a cartoon.

16:31
but I'm pulling other things from it. And so in that moment, that whole, you know, James Earl Jones' voice, you know what I mean? And so like, remember. Man. That thing started resonating in my chest. Remember who you are. You are their mom, mama bear, step up. And I did. And that thing.

16:59
was then something I could call on the next time and the next time. So they saw that step up and they continued to step up until he said one day, I think I should remove myself and start packing his stuff.

17:19
Whoa. How did that feel? Oh man, it was amazing. It was amazing. Unbelievable in that moment, but amazing. Wow. Yeah. Because you decided to be who you were already supposed to be. Yes. I feel like everybody has, I love that. I feel like everybody has that.

17:49
But what is it going to take for it to just get out of some people? You know, there is in every human being a survivor instinct. There is. That's why when you put human beings in a dire situation, they will do the extreme thing to get out.

18:13
Right. Right. And so I feel like for all of us in that moment, it was like, okay, the heiress then, everybody's starting to lose consciousness. What are we going to do? And I think in that moment, everybody was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to kick some windows out. We're going to jump if we have to, but we're getting out of here. And I think that for every human being, it has to be that moment.

18:43
where you see literally life or death staring you in the face, and that human thing, it has to come up, I believe, I believe it has to show itself, and it makes room for you to survive. Man, okay, okay. When, let me ask you this, when is it?

19:12
the right time to forgive.

19:19
I do think it matters because let's go back to that moment of, oh my goodness, I'm losing consciousness. I'm about to black out. This is it. Oh my gosh. That's not the time. You know what I'm saying? Like that is not the time. You know what I'm saying? Because people will go, you know, I really think we need to examine. And it's like, you know what? Right now, the survivor instinct in me is saying, if I don't find money for this mortgage.

19:49
we're heading to a foreclosure. If I don't get this bill paid, they've already been calling while me and my kids are in the car and they're gonna repossess what we're writing in. I don't wanna, I gotta deal with the stuff that feels like crucial, that feels like right now, that feels like something's on fire and it's me. Like that has to be dealt with first because a person can't even hear complex.

20:18
concepts.

20:20
when they're losing consciousness. Man. You know what I'm saying? It's like, this is not the time for, you know, forgiveness of yourself is really, like that's not the time, because I can't hear you. There's a ringing in my ears. Yeah. There's a black sheet in front of my eyes. I'm barely getting out of here. Yo, and low key, I feel like forgiving before you're ready is worse, does more harm. It does. First of all, let's be clear. Now, I mean, you're a man.

20:50
y'all is wired but I understand how women are wired and for us it has never not been true you can look a woman dead in her face and be like you are a piece of trash and she'll be like you know I'm a piece of trash so now you can look at this same woman and be like girl you are all that and she'll be like what makes you say that you gotta prove it

21:17
So in that moment with a woman, if she's losing consciousness and she's hearing the ringing in her ears and the black sheets in front of her face, you won't be able to make your case of why she's so great and deserves forgiveness, because there's not even enough of her presence to hear your argument.

21:39
Right. You actually have to wait until she feels safe and stable, and then you can start laying out your case. Well, you are all that because you did this, you did this, you figured out this, you conquered this. And then she's like, oh yeah, I didn't do that. Now she can hear. Now you've given her concrete evidence. Right. That's refuted all the negative messages she's already heard.

22:06
And now she can kind of start considering that that might actually be true. Right. Now she can start embracing that positive image as being who she is. Now we're getting closer to talking about forgiving myself. It's easy to forgive somebody who's great. Who's your favorite?

22:28
celebrity if you could meet him and be around him who would that be? Denzel Washington. Hey! Right? So he came in here right now and you guys were sitting and talking and let's say you hit out your most favorite pair of pants in the whole wide world but they're dry cleanable only. And Denzel starts laughing and oop spills coffee on your favorite pants.

22:51
He's Denzel. You already think he's great. You're gonna instantly forgive him. I didn't like him that much anyway, Mr. Washington. I hate these pants, it's all good. And look, you made a pretty pattern. You are going to instantly forgive him because you already think he's great. She has to think she's great before she can think about how easy it is to forgive.

23:21
Man, is that harder when you have an experience of being the OC, right? So, well hold on, before I get going, so the OC, because I'm talking like everybody knows what I'm talking about. So the OC is abbreviated for the other child in the book, is the abbreviation. So this is for the other child, which is the name of your book.

23:48
Yes, what is that like for the OC? That's hard. That is hard. Because of what I just said, there's that conflict, right? There's been this constant conflict many times from the child sexual assault survivor of, I don't like you.

24:12
and this constant tearing down, whether it's direct or subtle or a nice little combo meal. So then you're just like, okay, I want to believe I'm great, but if I'm so great, how come my sibling hates me and I've never done anything to them? So how can I see myself? And oftentimes the OCs are fixers in the family.

24:39
but they can't seem to fix that relationship. And they've been trying for decades. So if I was so great, why am I completely ineffective here? Yeah, that's a tough one. Man, and I feel like, what I appreciated about the book was that it puts, and normally, I'm just being honest with you, normally I don't like labels.

25:09
But there was something kind of like relatable, like, oh, that's what that is. Yeah, I am the other, I'm the OC. You are? Oh my God, yes. Wow. Yes. When you're talking about it, I was the one courageous that would.

25:29
man, I gotta wash the dishes so everything can be cool in the house. Let me do this. Mama, I'm gonna wash the dishes. Mama did this. Mama did my laundry, right? You know, and so being, it was like, oh.

25:43
Now mind you, I did not have anything as traumatic as you talked about in the book happen to me or to my brother, but just knowing some of the little things that you're talking about that I can relate to, like being the fixer or being the one that had to be, or felt like, because my mom never really put, she never put that pressure on me, but felt like I had to be the good one.

26:12
You know what I mean? I know you know what I mean. So like it was kind of, what's the word I'm looking for? Not reassuring in that family though. But it was like, oh okay, I got people out here. For real.

26:34
That was one of the reasons why I did it, because I'm just tired of being the odd man. Oh! Yeah. Well, it's like, you know how sorers and fraternity, you know, folks have like little sounds. Yep. I'm like, did somebody make the sound? Where y'all at? Where's our dance at? Okay, I need a little studio or a little sound. Give me something. Yes. So, can you walk me a little bit through, and I want to show the people your book.

27:04
the other child, walk me through your process of process meaning one what was your what was the thing that you said I need to write this book what was because there were times and correct me if I'm wrong but I could hear you were crying yes I can hear it like I'm like

27:28
It was like almost uncomfortable. Like, do I fast forward through this? I really wanna listen, but I could tell like your voice is trembling or like you don't wanna say it but you know you gotta get it out. You know what I mean? So what was the process through that? Because...

27:50
I don't know if it felt therapeutic for you to me. No, it did. It did. Because all of that stuff was thundering around in there. And so I don't know about anybody else, but that level of intensity of pain inside my body actually was painful to my body. Like it hurt.

28:15
Like physically. And I was just like, if I say this out loud and I'm sharing this with people, this is gonna have to be better than all of the bumping around it's doing on the inside of me. Right. So yeah, it was. Right. It was. Um, I feel like this is, it is, um,

28:37
Obviously it's very personal to you, but it can be very educational. Why do you feel like this is something that can be utilized for maybe for professionals? Yes, because nobody ever asked me anything beyond, you know, how they do the intake and everybody's got their questions. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Did this happen to you? Did this happen to you? Are you this person? Are you that person? And because I said no to that question, they just went on by.

29:07
And I had said to my therapist, I think, and I started therapy shortly after he left. So that was in 2017. And I said, many therapists got fired by the way. So I said to the first one, I feel like there is something that I don't know that's under the surface and at some point it's gonna rise up and get me when I'm not ready for it. This was it.

29:37
This was it. When you weren't ready for it. I was not. I didn't even know that there was trauma from what happened to her for me. I didn't know that. What was it like processing that? Oof. At first it was literally like getting hit with whatever the hardest thing is that you can get in with different things. Like literally.

30:04
You know, those movies where you see somebody get hit with something, you're like, whoa, I'm glad I didn't feel that. I felt that. It knocked the wind out of me.

30:18
Literally, I doubled over. I mean like my body spasmed for weeks after that man Like it was excruciating Man in the book you go at the end of the book you go over some Some tips in some tools for OCs. Yes Is there one that you felt like? just for somebody who

30:45
is kind of dipping their toe into wanting to make that change. Is there something that was kind of a lighter lift to get started? I think the lightest lift is to just, wow, see yourself. Just that, see yourself, period. Without the caveat of, well, I mean, I shouldn't make it about me.

31:14
Because any time there was even the slightest thought of, well, this doesn't feel good to me. Well, what about me in, well, what do I need for, I would always bat that thought away and go, shame on you. Now you know you should just be glad it wasn't you. You know you shouldn't be worried about all of that. Just let's refocus. Let's get our shift back to sis.

31:40
And I did that every time. So to me, the lightest lift is just see yourself. See yourself. Man, easier said than done.

31:57
Um, but I think it's... It is! Sorry, I'm trying to... I just have so many questions and I'm trying to be mindful of your time... our time here. Right, right. Because they're like, we're about to close. Right, right. But I want to say this though, you know, if... I want to get closing. Thank you.

32:22
courageous thank you so much for this conversation. Where can people, before we close, where can people find the book? The easiest place is Amazon. Okay. Just type it in because it'll show you all the different formats of the book including...

32:37
the audiobook so if you click on that it will reroute. Yeah and I'll make sure I put the links in the description of the episode but this is that moment where I asked my guest if you could look into the camera and for that person watching that needs some encouragement if you were talking to them right now what would you say to them?

33:03
You did good. You were dutiful, you were loving, you were considerate, you were compassionate, you were selfish, you did good. That was a beautiful human thing that you've been doing all through the years. Now all you need to do is just turn that inward. That's it. Just turn it around. And you can do it. And we will end with that. Courageous. Thank you so much.

33:33
This was great. I got more questions by my way too. Everybody, thank you for listening to Coffee Can't Fix Everything. Like I say after every show, I am not a therapist, but there will be links in the description of our episode where you can find the help that you want, and if you need it, it'll be there for you. Coffee Can't Fix Everything, but we will break the stigma of talking about mental health one coffee at a time. I'll highlight you next time.