Asking for help isn’t failure—it’s survival.

00:00
Hello everybody, thank you for joining me on the second season of Coffee Can't Fix Everything, the show we talk about mental health, over a cup of coffee. And I got my first guest for the second season. I've been super excited. I wanted her, I wanted them on the first season. But you know, after talking through, I was just stupid and didn't think about who I should connect with. But you know when we first met?

00:29
I think we've gotten to cross paths so many times. We have. So like, I first met you through DMU when we were on a panel together. Oh yeah. Yes, for like their, I think it was like their culturally responsive class or something like that. Yes, yeah, I remember. And like, you can just tell your passion for the work that you do in the community that you serve, undeniable.

00:57
Max, thank you so much for being here. Oh yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I mean, it's so wonderful to be able to chat about this work. And as you saw, and you know, I continue to feel like the job that I get to do both in my professional life and beyond is just a dream every day. So I'm really grateful anytime I get to chat with other folks that live that way too. That's so cool. I really appreciate that. And you know, today, I was telling you earlier, so I've...

01:27
been wanting to get into therapy for the longest time and I almost felt like a hypocrite in the way because I was I've been a part of these mental health committees and a part of these programs and people were seeing me as like a mental health like this mental health leader and advocate and I'm like no that's not me I'm not that guy I know go holler at Kayla that's the

01:57
Kayla, that is that she is that person you know I'm saying yeah and then I was like you know what I had to accept that you know people see me in that light which is fine but I wasn't doing what I was telling people they should do every after every episode I'm telling people hey we need help go seek help here's some links and I'm facing a lot of anxieties a lot of new levels and you know what I mean and I was like I'm

02:25
I keep talking about, oh, I should see a therapist. But the idea of asking for help was like, it was really, really uncomfortable for me. Oh, yeah. And then a great friend of mine who has been an advocate for mental health therapy for years was like, hey, I found somebody. You need to speak to them because your life is getting crazy. Yeah. Get them now, right, before it gets too crazy. Yeah. And I really love that. And so I'm like excited about this new journey

02:55
through with my own therapist and it got me thinking why is it so hard to ask for help you know so like I would love for you was it ever hard for you to ask for help in any way shape or form you know it absolutely is I mean I think

03:17
For me, I have been a person that's seen a therapist for a lot of my life. I started seeing a therapist when I was really, really young. And what was interesting about that was that it was something that my family members decided was best for me. It didn't ever feel like self-motivated until I was an adult. And so now I have had the same therapist now for eight years, ever since I moved back to Des Moines.

03:47
for help when it came to my mental health was a matter of like survival. I knew that I had some pretty intense like mental illnesses that needed support. I am like now almost five years sober as a result and so for me it became it went from you know mental health is something I had to do because other people were concerned about me to something that I wanted to do to take care of myself and

04:17
the kind of process of getting access to mental health care as an adult has been really like fruitful for me and really beautiful too. Right. Do you feel like when that's awesome, congratulations on this everything that is that is beautiful. Do you feel like...

04:35
I've asked this to somebody else too earlier in the show. When you see somebody struggling and they're afraid to ask for help, can you see it on them?

04:48
You know that they maybe do need help or, and for me as a, as a, my personality, I'm a fixer, like I want to help. I want to help, help, help. Oh yeah. And like I can see it on somebody and be like, let me fix you. Let me help you. Yeah. But also I'll be like, ah, it has to be on their terms. Yes. Yeah. I see this actually a lot in my work with LGBTQ folks and one of the things that I get to do a lot in my job. So I, in addition to my work at one Iowa, oh my gosh, the fly hanging out.

05:18
In addition to my workout one Iowa where we're trying to get LGBTQ people with mental health care access Yeah, I'm also a gender and transition doula and I help people access gender affirming care One thing that's really surprising is that I think a lot of people that I get to work with especially trans and non-binary people They have to access mental health care sometimes as a way of getting the health care that they need interesting So that they can get like the letter that they need to transition

05:48
or access surgery. And so it's interesting because I'll often work with those folks and they're really really timid about trying to reach out for any support, any gender affirming care, any medical care, and then when they realize that they'll also need to work with a mental health provider, that can be a huge barrier as well. So I actually really often see people at that point where they don't know where to go, they don't know how to ask for help, and also in a state like Iowa

06:18
They don't know if that therapist is going to be safe, if their provider is going to be safe. And so one of my, one of the greatest privileges I've had in this world is to try to pave paths so people can be safe and get the care that they need. That is something that not a lot of people think about is you may have...

06:41
access to the care as far as having insurance or it being easily accessible to you, but is the provider that you're going to see, is it going to be someone that you you feel trust with? Right? There's someone that you can feel confident with and understanding where we're at in our society right now, that fear of asking for help knowing it's right there, but is it really there? And that's the kind of the same thing within the black community like...

07:10
You know, there may be options for someone to seek mental health care, but is that therapist going to understand me, you know, my culture and how I talk and how I act and what triggers me and not trigger, are they going to understand that? And that keeps a lot of people away. And that is a wrench in everything. Absolutely, yeah. I wonder...

07:40
I wonder when people are, when individuals that need help, what is that process like? So from the work that you do, right? What is that process like where, how long does it take somebody to, when they realize that I need help, to actually reaching out?

08:03
This is a fun question. I really like that you asked this because it's not.

08:08
very straightforward, especially with LGBTQ folks. So often in the trainings that I'll provide to providers or when I talk about like health equity in general, one of the things that I think a lot about is that a lot of LGBTQ people, especially trans folks, know that they need care or they know that they need a therapist. And they are so afraid to come out, to even themselves,

08:38
people who might be younger or have sought mental health care for a lot of their life. I also work with people who are in their 50s, 60s, and 70s where they've had to put those parts of themselves away for so long because they didn't have the resources or safety or access to get that care. And so I do find that the numbers for how long it can take is so skewed in the community because people don't always have the ability to know who they are

09:08
or to even conceive of the help they might need. They know something's wrong, they have some ideas, but our culture and society tells us to push those things down. Every system in the United States tells you that being LGBTQ is wrong. And so, so many folks will email me for the first time ever and they're like, I've never told anyone else that I'm LGBTQ, I'm in my 60s, like, what can I do? And for them, it could be decades.

09:37
middle and high schoolers I work with it's been a couple weeks and they're like I gotta go in so it really depends on the person. For lack of a better word like the mental torture of holding that in without for decades yeah I can only imagine what that feels like it's hard but but thinking you know I get a lot of people who ask me

10:03
Tori, how can I be an ally to the black community? You know, and like, for me, it's a great question and I'm not saying, I hear it a lot. So I laugh, I'm like, oh Lord Jesus. Right, I get it a lot. But it's a really good question, I'm glad people ask it. But so here's my question too. How can someone like myself,

10:28
be an ally to someone in the LGBTQ plus community who maybe I may see that may need help. Now I know I have.

10:36
And I have the privilege of having access to resources, mind you, right? So if I were to see someone and I can see it, I know who I can reach out to you, I can reach out to Kayla. I have people who I would, but there's not a lot of people who have those resources but still wanna be an ally and show their support. What does that look like? From your perspective, what does that look like to show support for someone?

11:03
And you want to be an ally, but you want to help as well. And you want to help. Yeah. Go on, Jesus. Um.

11:10
I think this is such a good question and I get it, you know, I've gotten it throughout my time in LGBTQ advocacy, you know, since I came out in high school and one of the things that I think people don't realize is how powerful it is to just have one person in your life that doesn't treat you with stigma when it comes to your identities. Talk about it. That is so impactful.

11:40
somebody comes to me and says like, oh, I have a trans kiddo in my family or my community. Like, what can I do? I never feel like I'm doing enough. And I just, I want to be able to like, you just like hold the person by the shoulders and say like, just the fact that you are safe and that you care about them, that's life-saving. Like that is suicide prevention. That is mental health care. And so just knowing that like being a stigma-free voice, a person that's willing to support someone

12:10
trying out new pronouns or a new name, taking them to a community resource or a pride festival. That's so impactful. But of course, like you said, there's so many different amazing resources. And so I do think, in Iowa, we have one Iowa where I work of course, but there's a lot of really other amazing other organizations to get connected with. And so I would say like, if you're really at a loss, like reach out to us, cause we really do wanna help. Right. Cause you're not alone.

12:39
And the fact that you're making this other person feel like they're not alone is incredible. Like, it's such a gift. Yeah. You know, I'm glad you said that. Because one way... And hear me out here. This...for me...and I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or the wrong thing. But I think I had the same conversation with Kayla. But the way I wanted to...or the way I see myself breaking that stigma

13:09
that, hey, you're my brother, you're my sister, whatever, is I don't wanna be the guy that's the equivalent of the guy or girl or whoever saying like, hey, to me like, hey, I have a black friend, I like black people, right? So I just treat everyone like I would treat anybody.

13:30
in a way. I understand people are different, but I'm not going to approach you and be like, hey Max, you know I'm cool. I know Kayla too. Kayla's my... I'm naming off all the people that I know that are in the community. Yeah. Because I feel like that's just weird. Sure. Just weird. Like I'll...

13:50
So I like to do things subtly. I'll rock a pin. I have my mental health pin on today because, you know, coffee show. But. As you do, you know. I'll rock a pin, I'll rock an ally shirt just to let you know, but I don't want to like overly do it because it almost comes off as not genuine, if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. And honestly, anytime anyone brings up Kayla, I'm happy to, you know, Kayla is on another level, just like a human, like wonderful.

14:20
human person but no I get that and I think it's a little bit of a like show don't tell thing yeah and you know I understand the

14:31
impulse there with a lot of people that I'll meet that are trying to get connected or be supportive. That's the first thing they'll do. They'll, you know, say like, oh, I'm connected with this person or I've done this thing. And I really see that as like a bid for connection. But I agree. And

14:51
Perhaps I'm more used to that in my job, the more and more I work with allies in the community. But I do also think that a way of showing and not telling is to have your pronoun pin or have a rainbow pin. But showing up when anti-LGBTQ legislation is being passed at the Capitol, attending prides, being connected in the community, I think also shows people that you're out there.

15:21
I think to your point, it can sometimes be hard to show somebody that you're really lovely and supportive without literally telling them. And it can even be down to sharing your pronouns and opening the door for them to do the same. Anytime somebody is sharing their pronouns, even if they don't ask me what mine are, that shows me like, oh, this person is thinking, they're paying attention, they want to treat me with respect. And so I think that there are those little things too. But I definitely understand what you're saying.

15:51
And I bring it a lot up because I feel like it helps kind of tying it back to the original theme of the episode is I want people to know that hey, I rock with you because if you need help you know you can come to me for help. Right? And I feel like, you know, every job I've had...

16:13
Just from my perspective, I try to look for the people that I think, okay, y'all, you rock with black people. So I know I can rock. You know what I mean? You just try to find those allies that, you know, you can be, you can lay your hair down with or you can be comfortable around. So I think, I think that's just, it's just important to be able to show people.

16:33
that you rock with them or that you love them in whatever way but also I'm doing that because I know if you ever feel it without being like hey I know you're going through stuff and they're like bro what are you talking about? Like just like come to me for help. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Well and I think.

16:53
You're saying that knowing who the allies are in your community, the people you can trust, that's a survival technique. Like that's a thing in Iowa. I've been surviving out here, Max. Yes. I'm trying. I mean, we have to name that too. 100%. For Iowa, for a place that has anti-LGBTQ legislation, anti-immigrant legislation, we know that Iowa has some downtowns. Like it's not enough to wear a shirt

17:23
you know, try to tell people that you're an ally. You really do have to like live it and be a part of that. 100%. Yeah, I think that we don't always grapple with that enough. And I think people kind of can like paint Iowa differently. Or if you're like in Des Moines, think that that's the way that the rest of the state looks. And honestly, like, as we're seeing in Des Moines, we have huge issues with police violence, criminalizing homelessness, like all these different things.

17:53
And so I really do think that a part of asking for help and mental health in the state is survival and knowing who those people are. Can you talk about the differences? Are you from Des Moines originally? I am, yeah. You are? Okay. I'm just curious and maybe you may know of like, I feel like, again, from the outside looking in, it feels like there are a lot of resources that ask for help here.

18:23
that are maybe in a smaller town that don't have easy access to get help. You know what I mean? What is that process like? And maybe do you know what that feeling is like? Yeah, I'm glad that you asked about this because...

18:45
it's easy to find some pockets in the state where it can feel like there's resources. And even in Des Moines, there's not even like we haven't even reached the tip of the iceberg of all the access that we could have. But when I am working with someone from a very rural part of the state, one of the things that they come up against is that often in really, really small towns, like everyone knows your car, you know, some of the trans and non-binary people I work

19:15
within deeply rural parts of the state are, like they can't just go to Target and buy a piece of clothing that feels affirming to them because everyone there, they probably have to drive some distance to the Target, but everyone there like kind of knows them, right? A lot of the time, what we look at when we look at food insecurity and food access is people needing to go to a food pantry in a different town because they're afraid of people seeing them in their own town.

19:45
Intersect right and so one of the things that I'm thinking about with those folks is how to Get them out of a place of isolation even with that like that one person that is affirming that one person that is an ally Can we just broaden their little circle a little bit so that they feel? Like there's someone alongside them as they're navigating those small-town dynamics but I think it's much more complicated because you

20:15
everybody knows everybody's family. And I've even seen that growing up in the very neighborhood that I now live in. People have known me in a variety of different names and pronouns and genders and to see that in a space where you're even more isolated and there's more of a chance that the people around you are not affirming. I'm trying to help those folks broaden their circle and find just a little bit of support here and there first.

20:45
that I've been talking to you, this sounds like a whole lot of work. You're right. I just had to sit with that for a second. Absolutely. Yes. How, in this time and level in your career and the work you have now, in the work you see ahead of you, how do you ask for help?

21:16
I'm glad that you asked. That was a good one. Yeah, that was a good one.

21:23
Dang, it's really hard. I mean, I am in a really busy season professionally as I've hopped into the role of executive director. I'm finishing out our program director work at One Iowa. I help from the Iowa Trans Mutual Aid Fund. We give people money for gender affirming care, and I'm a gender and transition doula still. And this has been a really hard season to ask for help, because these are all things I wanna be doing.

21:53
What a privilege first of all like a privilege. Yo, that's real. Yeah like that I always have to stand in gratitude of that and I wake up every day just like not believing it but I think with that it is really challenging to say like I need others and When I'm having a hard time asking for help, I have to go back to my values and my values are community their shared liberation their mutual aid

22:23
like how am I engaging in those values and like going to try to help everyone else if I'm not willing to receive that? And asking for help is a way of like, yeah, living in those values. So I have to kind of talk to myself about that. Like I have to give myself a pep talk about that and realign. Yeah, but I'm glad you said that because, you know, for me, you know, thinking of, I asked you that question and I'm thinking, how do I ask for help? You know what I'm saying?

22:53
Taking tips on it And like it's hard to think of asking for help when All the things you're doing And I say you I'm talking about me are things that like I'd love like it like it Gives I'm just ready for it. Oh my gosh. So but it's also can be very very stressful and draining too So how do how do you ask for help when you're doing?

23:22
all the things that you asked for. You had on your little sheet, I wanna do this, this, and this. And now you're doing them. And then to ask for help, it feels like, oh man, if I ask for help, am I failing? Yeah. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? Yes. Am I failing now? I feel like I need help on all these things that I wanna do. Yeah. And I think for me, it's gonna be, currently it's gonna be a mindset shift to...

23:51
I'm not failing, I just need help. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think in going back to alignment with values, too, like we are communal humans. Like, we're supposed to live in communities with each other and get support from each other. And

24:14
Capitalism, colonization, you know, these large systems of oppression want us to be hype And so I have to remind myself that you're doing a little bit of unlearning too, that you're on your own, and if you can't do it all on your own, then you're a failure, because that's simply not the case. We know that up until very, very recently in the humankind, we've needed each other so deeply to raise each other, take care of each other,

24:44
raise our children like and so I I understand that because I often will say like I'm really stressed out but it was my idea but I know that like I'm such so much of a better leader doula advocate activist if I'm engaging with people about why that stuff is hard because in that way I'm helping that person you know feel more secure and asking for help I'm humanizing the

25:14
struggle and I'm moving away from this capitalist kind of mindset that you have to perform, you have to perform without error, individually and alone and that's just that's isolating. And that's bad for your brain. It's bad for your brain. And like, what's the saying? It takes a village, right? Well it takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to be an adult too. Yes. Oh my gosh. I often say, something that's really important to me is to talk about

25:44
a little issue because often it's like, oh, you're burnt out. How could you let this happen? You better take a bubble bath or something to fix that. And then you'll be back to normal. And I think burnout is actually like, it's a community issue. It's something we can get into together and we can get out of together. But that takes talking to people about how you're struggling or you need support. So.

26:09
Yeah, but it's very easy to be like, aw dang, I'm failing. It's very easy to feel like you're failing and at the ripe old age of 40, I'm just now starting to feel comfortable asking for help. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it was a, I think, and I'm just speaking from a black man's perspective who grew up in a black environment.

26:33
not asking for help was almost a sign of masculinity. It was like, yeah, I'm doing it on my own. It was like a badge of honor in a way. And like talking about all the things I'm doing. And when someone says, so who's helping you? And I'm like, it's just me. And it's like, wow, it's like, yeah, it's just me. But inside I'm like, it's just me. Oh yeah, no, that makes sense though.

27:03
I can only imagine also how isolating that is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like, and I'm thankful. I'm thankful for the community that I have now. Yeah. Because that's really kind of helped soften my ideas over the past couple years. This has taken years, taken years for me to get to this point. But like, to your point about community, it took a different community that was like...

27:32
A, you need therapy or you need help and it's okay. Yeah. And even around some of my friends now, and it still bugs me out that I have friends that'll be talking about, oh man, I just had therapy today and they told me, and they're saying it in such a casual way. It's like, bro, five, 10 years ago.

27:54
No one if you were if I were to ask you hey, where were you at the past hour? You'd be you would say something. I wouldn't rob the bank somebody some Anything to get you off the sense of therapy, right and having those people around me Has made it really easier for me to be like

28:13
you know what, I think I'm gonna do this and it's gonna be dope. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense too. Like your experience makes me think a lot about how just like burnout is communal. Like I think mental health really is. Yeah, 100%. And it's, we're taking those cues from the people around us. And I think that's why so many mental health issues and resources have to be based on someone's experience and their identities, you know?

28:43
that a lot when we talk about not only LGBTQ affirming providers but providers that can work with folks of color, providers that can work with folks with disabilities, providers that can work with folks that are neurodivergent. I think that that's also all really important because often people feel like they need to silo themselves in one experience. In a place like Iowa, sometimes it feels like you have to pick and choose and I want to create a community where you don't have to. You can be seen in all those things.

29:12
you on this communal burnout thing a little bit because I love that and I'm curious on like what what would it look like to create something to where people can get together when that's happening like I just I don't know what I'm trying to say or what that would look like but I love the idea of it yeah you know I mean like what

29:42
What could it be just something like this where take the camera out of the way, but just people just coming together and just being able to just be themselves. Yeah.

29:53
Or, I'm curious about, I'm gonna chew on that a little bit. I'm gonna, and maybe I'll have you back and we can just talk about communal burnout. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that has been one of the cool things about one of the, one of the Iowa programs I get to work on, the LGBT Leadership Institute. It's how I've met so many people, but we dive into these issues, and in fact, the curriculum and the program, I've changed a lot over the recent years to be better addressing these larger problems.

30:23
to create more of a space for people to connect. Like I used to think like, oh I have to fill all the time with speakers. And now so much of the time is just spent with people like being able to talk to each other. And although I don't know that that's like the solution, the burnout necessarily, like the thing that I think is really fruitful from that is that people have the time to just be and to talk about what's heavy for them. And I think that that's really meaningful, but we don't have enough spaces like that. You know, like this honestly, you know.

30:53
And like for me when I get into those spaces where there is like a time to like connect before like the main thing is for me that's sometimes the best time. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? I can just like no agenda. I can just...

31:14
say how I'm feeling, talk to whomever, be there for somebody, they can be there for me. And like that's almost the best time. And then when it's time for like the thing, it's like, oh man, this is over. But we're so busy these days, it feels like we don't have, we don't have time. This is a plug for the slow down. We don't have time to slow down.

31:39
I feel like that could be the best help. Just sit your ass down somewhere for a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I think you're so right, and I also think like...

31:53
when it comes to that kind of connecting, it's sad because as we know, like, people are losing third spaces in their community and so many of the spaces that you can go that are not work or school or home are places you have to pay to be in. Places that are increasingly less accessible to houseless people who also need that connection in that community because of the way, you know,

32:23
myself, you know, a house person. And so there are so many ways that I think that like even libraries, support groups, you know, free program, free programming that nonprofits do, for example, like I think that those places are all really important, but it's really sad that we've lost a lot of those as well. That's true. Time to connect. You know, that's real. You know, Max, before I get you out of here, who spent a whole lot of time

32:53
about help, if there is somebody listening, watching, and they haven't made that step to ask for help yet, what would you say to that person?

33:08
about this a little bit. Yep, take your time. Magic of editing, everybody will think it just happened right away. Oh! Perfect. Uh. Um.

33:22
So I come from originally like very rural, Midwest farming families.

33:32
And even with my close parents, I have seen what can happen when people feel that they have to go it alone. And that they have to be so individual and that that's a sign of honor. And in those spaces, they didn't have access or even lack of stigma around accessing care.

34:02
up against asking someone for help or when I know that I have that friend that like really needs to reach out and ask but doesn't know how I think that it's really important to remember that when you don't ask when you don't tell people how you're struggling the only one that suffers there is you and that's not something that you can take with you like that's not currency that doesn't make you a better or more worthy person you are worthy as you are and

34:32
you should access that community and that support as you are. And being miserable and isolated and alone is not your rent for being on this earth. And I think a lot of people kind of work themselves, at least the farming families that I come from, they can work themselves into this corner that's like, if I ever need anything, if I ever feel like I'm burdening or draining people, that's a mark against me. And I would just say, know that when

35:02
and you don't ask for help when you don't reach out, you're not harming the people in your life, you're harming yourself. And often when I'm really, really struggling, the thing that I'll constantly say to myself is when I don't ask the people in my life for help, I'm not giving them the happiness and joy that I get when I help other people. I'm taking that from them because I'm not giving them the opportunity to support me. So think about how much you,

35:32
for help quite yet. Think about how much you like to help your family member or community member like how wonderful that feels that you can pour into that person. Would you don't tell them that you need that back? You're not giving them that opportunity either.

35:48
And that's just a shame. Like, you know, they want to support you just as much as you want to support them. So let them let them do that. Yes. Oh, mic drop. But we're not going to drop these mics. So I'm just adding myself with that one, honestly. Max, thank you so much for being here. I truly it was great to to actually have a conversation with you. Yeah.

36:18
longer than being on a panel or something like that. This was really, really cool. For those that are listening or watching that want to learn more about you, what Iowa or the work that you do, where can they reach you?

36:33
Yeah, there are so many wonderful things I get to be a part of. So, um, you can reach out and learn more about One Iowa. We're on Instagram, Facebook, oneiowa.org is our website. Um, if you're interested in learning more about like my doula work, um, I'm, I'm max the doula that's my like handle on Instagram and Facebook. Um, so especially if you're a trans person that needs support, please reach out. Um, ask for help. I would love to help you. It is such a joy.

37:02
And then if you're interested in the Iowa Trans Mutual Aid Fund that I mentioned, that's Iowa Trans Mutual Aid Fund or ITMAF and we have a website as well as an Instagram too. Perfect. That was actually my therapist just calling me back. Oh my gosh, amazing. They felt the message. Awesome. Max again, thank you so much. Thank you. Everybody, thank you for listening to Coffee Can't Fix Everything.

37:32
If you need help there will be links to find services in the description of this episode. We want you here. I love you. So coffee can't fix everything but we are going to break the stigma one conversation at a time. I'll holler at you next time.